| B. |
I would like to start with some questions about your contact with
Ferdinand, then some questions about the photo sessions with Fred V., and
finally some questions about your contact with the police. If you can't
remember then don't hesitate to say so. If you don't want to answer some
questions, you can say that also. |
| P. |
Good. |
| B. |
How did you first meet Ferdinand? |
| P. |
At a party. (...) |
| B. |
Can you explain? |
| P. |
Before Ferdinand I knew someone else, George (a previous pedophile
contact). I had been with him to a party and there I met Ferdinand. I can't
remember any more what kind of party it was. |
| B. |
And how did it go from there? Did he invite you or did you initiate
things? |
| P. |
From George. George said something like, "Make contact with him
and make a date." |
| B. |
What did you think of that? |
| P. |
Good. (...) |
| B. |
How old were you at the time? |
| P. |
Nine or 10. |
| B. |
Can you tell me what sorts of things you did with Ferdinand?
|
| P. |
All kinds of things. (...) |
| B. |
Such as ... |
| P. |
Been with him on vacations, very often swimming. Often been camping
with Ferdinand and other friends, and such like.
|
| B. |
Did you stay overnight with Ferdinand? |
| P. |
Yes, that also. During the time that I had the relationship with
Ferdinand I stayed over almost every weekend. |
| B. |
Was there a period of 'the relationship'. |
| P. |
Yes. (...) |
| B. |
For how long? |
| P. |
From when I was 9. |
| B. |
From 9 until when? |
| P. |
'Till I was 11, 12. |
| B. |
Did you also have sex with Ferdinand? |
| P. |
Yes. Of course. (...) |
| B. |
Can you remember more things? |
| P. |
No. Not really. (...) |
| B. |
I want to know not only about the 'relationship period', but also about your contact with Ferdinand up to the
present.
|
| P. |
To the present? Yes. The contact has been there all the time because
I still visit Ferdinand often. Swimming. (...) |
| B. |
What are the positive aspects of your contact with Ferdinand? |
| P. |
We can really talk to each other. Then and now. I can really
communicate with Ferdinand. (...) |
| B. |
What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand? |
| P. |
I don't have any. (...) |
| B. |
What do your parents think about your contact with Ferdinand? |
| P. |
I don't know? |
| B. |
Have you talked to your parents about Ferdinand? |
| P. |
Now, I know that in those days, when I had sexual contact with
Ferdinand, when we were going around with each other, that my mother
didn't like it very much. From my father I don't know, because they were
divorced and thus only the opinion of my mother was important. |
| B. |
And she thought it was O.K.? |
| P. |
No. |
| B. |
What did she do? |
| P. |
Nothing. |
| B. |
She allowed it to go on? |
| P. |
Yes. She let me see that she didn't like it very much but she didn't
forbid it. I've never been able to convince my mother. She didn't agree with me and she let me know. One day, I can't
remember exactly when, I think that she psychologically blackmailed me.
She brought me into such a state that I phoned Ferdinand to say that I
didn't want to see him any more. He didn't understand at all why I should
tell him that. Myself I thought, "Something is not right here." I
did it just because my mother told me that I had to do it. I didn't
understand even though I used to think about what I did, even in those
days. But at that moment I didn't. I simply did what she said. Then he came
to our house. He didn't have any difficulty to win me back, but he did with my mother.
|
| B. |
How old were you then? |
| P. |
It was ... In those days we lived in Lelystad, and I was nine or
ten when I phoned Ferdinand to say that I didn't want to see him any more, but that was
actually the message of my mother.
|
| B. |
At that time did you realize what was going on? |
| P. |
Yes! |
| B. |
Did you tell your mother what you thought? |
| P. |
No. I just couldn't bring my
mother to her senses. Not that there was a fight or anything. My mother
and I were just not on the same wavelength over that. How that came about
I don't know. But that was just so. She told me that she thought it was
worth nothing, my relationship with Ferdinand. For one or other reason
then it went wrong. I had to say that I didn't want it any more and I did
that, but at
the same time I was thinking, "This doesn't make sense, what I am saying
now." |
| B. |
After that were you able to reestablish your contact with Ferdinand? |
| P. |
He came the same evening to find out what had happened. He also
didn't understand. In fact, it was very good between us. Ferdinand came the
same day and wanted to know where the 180 degree about face had come from.
He spoke first with my mother and later with me. I think that he had lots
of difficulty with my mother. My mother told him that he had to convince
me, that the problem came from me, but that was not true. |
| B. |
Was there emotional blackmail from Ferdinand? |
| P. |
No! From my mother! How so from Ferdinand? |
| B. |
That he had so much difficulty to get you back? |
| P. |
He didn't blackmail my mother. |
| B. |
No, I mean you. |
| P. |
No, also not! I know that for sure. I wanted that relationship with
Ferdinand. It had already been underway for a long time, you know. My
mother had let it go on for a long time, with the idea, "Let's
see." But she expressed two opinions, I think. When Ferdinand was
there she agreed with him that everything ought to be possible. But later
with me it was different. She tolerated it but suddenly she became
difficult. That has had an effect on me, that ambiguity. When Ferdinand was
in jail that whole thing came up again and I wrote to him that I didn't
want to have anything more to do with pedophilia. Not only because
Ferdinand had to sit in jail at that moment, but because the whole of society was
against us. I thought, "After all, I have to live in this
society." At that moment it became too much for me. |
| B. |
Do you ever see your father? |
| P. |
Very often. (...) |
| B. |
How often? |
| P. |
It is not arranged. Sometimes I don't see him for weeks.
(...) |
| B. |
What did your friends at school think of your contact with
Ferdinand? |
| P. |
They didn't know and they still don't know. I recently called up
a girl friend I used to know at school, and she knows now. I told her. She
used to be in my class. I told her because I
thought it was necessary because we are planning to live together.
|
| B. |
And what did she think? |
| P. |
She thought it was really nice. She thinks it's stupid that there
are penalties for that. But she is also not at all prejudiced because she doesn't know anything about
it.
|
| B. |
No details, you
mean. |
| P. |
No. I mean, she is very naive in that area. Yes, she knows of course, that
it's about people who love children and also have sex with them, but for
the rest she doesn't know anything. I told her with the intention of
saying not only that I had experienced it but to let her know what it was.
I think that is important if you are going to live with someone to tell them.
|
| B. |
What can you tell me about the photo sessions with Fred? |
| P. |
Fred. I first met him on vacation in Yugoslavia, with
Ferdinand. He made lots of photos of his little boy friend. And since I
met him there we have often been to a bungalow park and lots of photos
were made of the people who came along.
|
| B. |
Who were they? |
| P. |
There were the little boy friends of Fred, from Belgium, and Fred
and Ferdinand. There was other children there and they were photographed
also. |
| B. |
What are the positive aspects of the photo sessions? |
| P. |
None. (. . .) I think that if you keep the photo
sin your own circle, or keep
them for yourself, than it can hold something that, after a time, won't
exist any more. As he used them it has turned out only negative. I mean
not only that Ferdinand had to go to jail because of them, but also that I
am now in magazines which I know nothing about. Those are all sex
magazines and I
don't like that. He never asked me for that. |
| B. |
My next question was, what are the negative aspects of the photo
sessions? But you have already given the answer. It was only negative. Can
you tell me how you came into contact with the police? |
| P. |
Just like that. When I came out of school one day they were there, at
home. |
| B. |
What happened then? |
| P. |
They wanted to talk to me for a while. (...) |
| B. |
Can you tell me something about it? |
| P. |
Yes. They wanted to talk to me. Now, yes, wanted
... They had to make me talk whether I wanted to or
not. (...) |
| B. |
And what happened then? |
| P. |
I took them to my room and there they asked me various things. |
| B. |
Was your mother there? |
| P. |
No. |
| B. |
How did you experience that? |
| P. |
I didn't find it very nice. They had come just like that
... I had to
make time for them. I didn't think it was very pleasant that they hadn't
made any appointment with me. And their manner of behaving ... If you are a
pedophile then you must not abuse your power, but the police certainly do.
They made it obvious that they were the police and they asked things, but
the manner. |
| B. |
Did you answer them? |
| P. |
I gave answers to everything, yes. |
| B. |
Did you have any further contact with the police? |
| P. |
They didn't come back. |
| B. |
What are the positive aspects of your contact with the police?
|
| P. |
I didn't have any. |
| B. |
Not one? |
| P. |
No! |
| B. |
But that was the child protection police, youth police. They are there
for your interests? |
| P. |
They were not nice. Yes, for my interests. It wasn't in my interests
that they should destroy our relationship. I mean my relationship with
Ferdinand. At that moment they had disturbed our
relationship. |
| B. |
And what did they destroy? |
| P. |
Now, they are interested in protecting children, but in my case there
was nothing to protect me from. |
| B. |
What are the negative aspects of your contact with the police? |
| P. |
Now, that they just came in without an appointment so that you
couldn't prepare yourself for such an interview. I had to answer unprepared
and I had to go along with them. |
| B. |
What did your mother think of it? |
| P. |
I haven't spoken to her about it. |
| B. |
But she was there. |
| P. |
For the interview with the police not. The interview with the police
took place in my room. |
| B. |
But she was at home so she knew that the police had to speak to you.
|
| P. |
Yes. (...) |
| B. |
And you have not talked at all to her about it? Told her nothing? |
| P. |
She asked, "What have you all been taking about?" She
asked me a whole lot of questions and I answered her. She was just as
surprised and perhaps just as irritated as I was. |
| B. |
Why did you continue writing letters and phoning Ferdinand while he
was in jail? |
| P. |
That question doesn't really concern me. I wrote him one letter. |
| B. |
Why did you write that letter? |
| P. |
Why did I do that? An ordinary letter? I thought
that he was rather innocent
and in jail. It was not really his own fault. In one way or
other I had to let him see that I felt for him. I think that is a bit of a
strange question. Isn't it logical that you would do such a thing? |
| B. |
Good. I can imagine that. I am a little skeptical about all this, but
if you find my questions not good then don't hesitate to correct me. |
| P. |
What I wrote was actually my own problem also. At that moment it
just became too much for me. (...) |
| B. |
You still visit Ferdinand. |
| P. |
Yes. |
| B. |
How have you been able to get on with your friendship since
Ferdinand's release from jail? |
| P. |
It had never been broken. We carried on from where we were. We
talked about all that, the time that he was in jail. Nothing had changed
actually. He was more changed than I.
|
| B. |
Has your contact with the police changed your ideas about the
police? |
| P. |
No. Certainly about that sort of police. But not over the whole
police body. |
| B. |
Can you explain that further? |
| P. |
Um. The people who came to me, the children's police, they were
not so nice. I think they had the wrong manner of going about things.
If they
did that sort of thing to me then they will surely have done the same to
others. That is not so good. I don't have much difficulty with other kinds
of police. I am not prejudiced over how the police work. |
