Did you hire him yourself?

Just — just off the record. Not since — (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the record and German E. Leitzelar Vidaurreta left the room, after which the following proceedings were had:)

By Mr. Cohen:

Ileana, we were discussing your arrest, and you told me you were arrested in — August 24th of 1984. Do you recall where exactly you were when you were arrested?

And do you know who Mr. Dinerstein worked for?

Yes.

When was the, if you recall — well, let me ask you this: What happened for the next following months that you can remember while you were incarcerated?

All right. Do you know what kind of medications they gave you?

Okay. When was the first time that you can recall that anyone visited you from the State Attorney's Office, or a representative of the State Attorney's Office?

No. At the beginning there was a long period of time that nobody visit me but Von Zamft and sometimes — you know, not all the time. I didn't know what was really going on with the case. But he'll come or he'll ask me if I have something to say or if I remember anything. And I —

No. You know, I always say that I have nothing to say, that I was innocent. And I had nothing to say about the charges that I — that I was charged with. And then I remember that it came a time where the trial date was nearby, and Von Zamft told me that the trial date was coming, and I still have nothing to say.

And he said that I needed to remember something or that I must have something to say. And I kept telling him no. And then he thought that I had problems and that I should be seen by a psychologist. And then two psychologists started seeing me.

Michael Rappaport and Merry Haber. So they came in, I met them, and they were very nice. And so they asked me the same questions that my attorney had asked me all that time.

And I kept telling him no, you know, that I have nothing to say. I had told him no, too.

Then they explained to me that I was — I was having problems and that they were there to help me. So they started therapy or treatment with me.

Well, we will meet usually in these little booths that they were downstairs. And we will start talking about the beginning, you know, about — I used to talk a lot about my childhood with them, and — but since, you know, those were good memories, I have good memories about my childhood, I always have a nice life, you know. And I talked a lot about my school and my friends. And that's where we started.

And then we got to the point about Frank which, you know, that was a bad experience I had. And so I was able to talk about that.

I remember tape recorders, but I don't know if it was in those sessions or with the lawyers or with DA's office. I don't know. But maybe they had one. More than likely probably they had one.

Because you have to understand that, you know, this was approximately ten years ago. And I hardly remember those times because I was — I don't know. I was very confused and I was very tired.

And so after we started talking about my you know, my past and how — I guess I talked a lot about that so they get to know me, what type of person I was. But then we started talking about the time being in the house in Country Walk, you know, how was it.

And I told them I had nothing to say because I had — you know, and they told me that there must be because the kids were saying this story and that story and that story and, you know. And I kept denying it to them because I had no memory. I couldn't recall none of those stories. And I couldn't recall nothing like that happening.

Yes. Yes. Hm-hmm. I — you know, I — because I kept saying that I was innocent, but nobody would listen to me.

And they said that I was suffering from a blackout, and that those things had happened because the kids said it, and the kids don't lie. And they said that it happened, so it must have happened. So —

They told me — then after they be telling me these stories that the kids were saying about games and stuff happening in the house, I remember going back to my cell, and then I would have nightmares about the same things they would tell me, you know.

And I would listen to the same things two days, three days, and nights, anytime during the day, on weekends, you know. Some of the times I did not even know if it was nighttime or daytime.

Right. And, you know, before I know it I was having nightmares. And that's when the treatment started they said. Because, you know, I was so afraid, the next day I went down and talked to them and tell them that the same things we talked about that they said the kids said, that I was having nightmares about them.

And they said that that was a way of my system remembering what had — what had actually happened.

And then, you know, I argued that a little bit, but I got to a point that I was believing that — that probably those things happened and I just didn't remember because they were so shocking that I — my sane mind protect — you know, as a protection I was — I was forgetting about them or putting them in the back of my head. And —

Investigators would take me out of the cell at night and we'd go to restaurants. I recall twice.

Because I saw them in court a couple of times, and because they told me they worked with Mr. Hogan.

Can you — I know it's ten years later but can you recall what one or either of them may have looked like?

No. I don't remember their names. maybe if I look at a picture, yeah, I would remember their faces, who they were.

Do you recall — well, how many times that you can remember did they take out of your jail cell into a restaurant?

I don't know. I was being afraid of Frank, so — in the beginning he — you know, he's the one that wanted to be in touch with me. And I feel he wanted to have control of the situation. Or maybe he knew back then I was so young, you know, and he — you know, he just wanted to be in touch, you know, kept in touch.

And I didn't mind. But then I — the time I was seeing the psychologist, you know, I started talking about how my life was really with Frank and why I was in that situation. So I started feeling remorse, you know, because it was his fault that I was in that situation.

Now what I want to do is — it might be a little easier for you this way. I'm going to go, I'm going to give you a name of an individual and then I'm going to want you to tell me what you can recall about this particular individual as it relates to this case. And whatever you want to say.

Your attorney, Michael Von Zamft. What can you tell me about Michael?

Yeah, they should be separate, because there was too much evidence against us. And there were a lot of evidence against Frank. And all those evidence were going to hit me because it was only one case.

And so I got very afraid. He told me that the state was going to win the case, and that it was necessary for me to remember everything and say it. But I have nothing to remember at the time. So he said he was going to get me psychologists to help me remember. And, you know, I kept telling him that there — that there was nothing I could remember.

He said that they didn't promise anything, but to be lenient. But still, I — you know, I felt very — I felt hesitant because I told him that I was innocent and I couldn't plead guilty to charges I didn't felt guilty about.

And he said that no, that those things happened, you know, and that Frank was guilty and I was guilty.

And I said no, I'm not. And then he will get mad and I won't hear from him for two days, three days. So I would get afraid because I feel like — like I felt very lonely then, you know, alone — not lonely, that's not the word, but alone. You know, alone at night. I didn't know what was going to happen.

So I felt the doctors were helping. I felt the doctors were helping when they started seeing me because I started remembering things.

I talked to him over the phone. About a year ago, you know, I found out through my mother that there was this group of people that has been investigating the case, and those people wanted to talk to me.

So I talked to one person, and I was — I was — you know, I was told about all this new evidence and all these things that really had happened ten years ago. And, you know, all these things were answering actually a lot of the questions that I have had all these years.

And so I was very confused and I called Mr. Von Zamft and, you know, I was — you know, I was telling him that is it true that this happened, you know, is it true that you did this or you did that, you know, or the doctors, is it true that they — they were playing with my mind.

So I was confused because all these years, you know, as the years go by, I have — I still have no memory of what I testified then — I mean about. Eight years ago, I have no — no memories of it. And the nightmares are fading to a point that even today I don't have nightmares about that.

All right. Let's talk about that deposition a little bit. The deposition I believe was over a couple day period. It was back in September of 1985, more specifically September 12th and then September 18th, 1 believe.

Do you recall anything today about your deposition?

All right. So other than — other than your attorney and

— about it. I don't remember if it was Mr. Hogan. And I remember Janet Reno coming in a couple of times, too, to see me.

No. It was more than two times. I don't exactly know how many times but — you know, but it was more. She'd come in, and all I remember is that — even now I have the feeling that she's a very intelligent lady. And she was very nice to me and she told me she wanted to help me, and that something real bad had happened to me and it was her duty to make sure that justice was done and —

Yeah. And she told me that those things had happened, that that's what the psychologists said, and that I had to accept it.

I don't remember, but it was in between the-in the deposition.

So you took a break, is that — or something happened like that, or you don't recall?

I don't remember the procedures or sometimes I did not know if I was in record or not because — you know, it's not like right now I know exactly what's going on. And back then everybody told me what to do or when to talk, when not to talk. And I was afraid.

Because I've read your deposition, and in your deposition it reflects that you came back in and said that you wanted to correct a statement that you had made regarding how many times Janet Reno visited you.

What about — again, I've read the deposition, and it seems according to the record in the deposition that Dr. Rappaport was there also. Do you recall that?

When she visited you, would — do you recall if she was alone or with someone else?

All right. Now I want to get back again to these — the sessions that you had, because the next names on my list here are Dr. Rappaport and Dr. Haber.

Do you recall if — when they would start these sessions what would they say to you? Do you recall what they would say?

No. I can hardly remember. This has been so long. You know, I remember just that I will calm down, and I just wanted to get it over with because, you know, they told me this happened, this happened, this happened. And I will break down and say no, no, no, it didn't happen. And then they would tell me that yes, I have to accept it, I have to confront it. So they were long sessions and tiring. I just remember that that was the procedure.

And I would go to bed, and I don't know why, but I would dream about the same things the kids were saying and the same things they were telling me.

So I came back, and the first question was so what did you dream about last night, did you have any bad dreams or did you not. If I had bad dreams I had to tell them about my bad dreams in detail. And they did tell me, you see, you remembering.

And then I say no, it cannot be because I have b— I still have no memory, I just have bad dreams.

And they say that that was the way of me remembering. So it was shocking, you know, and-up to today, you know, I've been confused, you know, did that really happen or not, because I have no memories of it.

Did they — do you recall them teaching you in any way how to remember things? Did they give you any instructions on what to do?

No. Just that during the sessions they would repeat the — they said that — they would tell me that — I think the state or Von Zamft, I don't know who, would give them the information about what the kids were saying, and they would tell me what the kids were saying and they would ask me about it.

And I'd go back to bed. And then I remember having bad dreams about it. They told me that that was a technique of remembering bad things.

Yeah. When I — when I went to the sessions and I had — they told me I had to feel clear, I had to clear my mind about anything else that was happening. I had to forget that I was in jail, and I had to think that I was back in the house. And then I —

Yeah. I can actually be in the house. I mean I could go to any room. I can — they would tell me just, you know, close your eyes and think you are walking into the room.

And I had to give them details of the room first, where the bed was, where the lamps were, whatever I could remember. And then I have to visualize the events, what the kids were saying, and visualize my dreams.

And I had to tell them, you know, if it was something in the kitchen, I had to think about the kitchen, how the kitchen was. And I have to picture myself in there. And then I have to tell them about my nightmare that I had in the kitchen.

And then I had nightmares about the living room, I had nightmares about the main room, and I had to do the same thing.

Yeah, they took notes. And they said that I was remembering, and then after remembering I was going to feel better. And that I needed to help the children, and the only way to help them is remembering and backing their word up. I have to back up their word.

No. I just remember they were long, or until I remember.

And when I came back with nightmares that I have had the night before, we had to go through the nightmare again. I had to tell it and I had to transport myself into the house again. And once that was over, then we'd take a break into the next day.

And then the next day I had nothing to say. And then they'd tell me something else that the kids said, and I have no memories, and I tell them I don't remember, I don't remember. So they said that then it was time for me to go and rest. And I had to think at night before going to bed, I had to think and try to remember real hard. And I just had to clear my head again and then rest, and that everything was going to come up, because it was a defense that I had. My own mind was defending me from the memories. So that's what I used to do for that whole period.

I — after — how can I explain you? After talking to the psychologists and after having the bad dreams, I came to a point that those things really had happened because they convinced me that I was remembering everything through my dreams, and I came to realize that maybe those things happened.

But one thing that I always argued with them is how come I didn't have memory of it. I mean — and they told me that with time I will know it.

But, you know, it's like when you know you did something, you broke something, but you know you did it, you know, even if you — if you tell your mom, no, I didn't do it, but you know you did it.

And I didn't have that feeling. You know, it was just — it was just something that had happened that it was true, but I didn't know about it because of this blackout that they said I had.

Well, I came back to Honduras, and like I say my nightmares are fading, and I still don't remember none of those things happening. But I decided to — I mean what can I do about it? You know. And those things probably happened, and that's what I've been believing all those years, those things probably happened, but I still don't remember, you know.

And — but ten years have gone by, and I still don't remember. And so I decided just to keep living my life, you know, and try to forget that that ever happened to me and better myself.

Until about a year ago, like I said, I didn't know that someone was researching and worrying about, even listening — listening to me. And I thought they had forgot about me or anything. And then you guys came up with this proofs with these things that might have happened, and to a lot of answers to my questions. So now I'm back into that stage, you know.

Yeah, right. And I never saw anything happening, either.

So those bad dreams, you know, that's one question now I hope that somebody can answer to me.

But when you — but when we talked about a year ago and you told me about how I was feeling and probably this had happened, or you told me about this doctor that believes that this and that and, you know, about — described me, described me practically just from reading my deposition and reading about me, and it was incredible. I felt like this person knew me. And I have never talked to anybody about this case.

We're back on the record at approximately 1:20 P.M. Ileana, I want to stay on this course that we were on here with your sessions with the doctors and just talk about this a little bit more.

When you'd have these sessions, do you recall anyone else being present other than Dr. Rappaport and Dr. Haber?

No. The sessions were, you know, we'll start talking about anything. Anything. About how was my day, what I did or who did I call over the phone or if my mother visited me.

And then they said well, we're going to start talking about your dreams, did you have any bad dreams or not.

And then when I had nightmares, you know, they would tell me, you know, you have to clear your head, you have to forget that you're here.

I remember that. He was very violent. And — so they tell me that I have to think about that.

And then I had to think about my nightmares. And just by detailing it, just by being in the house — I have to transport myself into the house, and don't be afraid to walk in the house. And I will actually — you know, I close my eyes and I would be actually walking into the house and I would be detailing everything to them.

Yeah. That was the only way to picture the house. And then I will retell my nightmares, part by part. And some of the things that I dreamt were so awful that I didn't want to — I didn't wanted to repeat the nightmares.

You know, they were like games. And I will see all the kids in there and I will see Frank in there doing weird stuff.

And that was what happened, you know, that was what my mind — my mind couldn't take that, so that's why they were in the back of my memory. But I had to back up the kids if I wanted to help them. And that's why it was so hard to dream that.

Some of the stuff they told me I couldn't dream about it. And they would get mad, but I couldn't dream about it, so —

Yeah. Only if I dream about it. Because other times they told me well, this really happened.

And I said no, because that wasn't in my dream.

They said well, you will dream it. And it was true.

Yeah. Every time I would dream the same things. Maybe they were a couple of things that were not in my dreams. They told me that after this was over and after I was away that they would come up again and I was to call them and tell them.

Just Von Zamft and the doctors. They also — Von Zamft told me to take a lie detector test. I remember they took me to the DA's office and I took a lie detector test. I took two or three. And I passed two of them I think, but — I know I passed one or two of them, but — I am not sure how many there were, but I failed one. I think it was the last one.

And — but I kept having the sessions during that time with the doctor. So I was — in my mind I was confused when they will ask me the same things the doctor said that really had happened.

I don't know why I failed the last one. I was supposed — and they say that they didn't know how I passed those two, that I needed to say the truth.

Do you recall anything else that you said during that interim between deposition and trial testimony that — you spoke with your attorney, you spoke with the doctors. Do you recall what you spoke about?

Because — but I didn't remember it, so I — that's why they said they had to see me so much, because the trial was getting there and I didn't have enough — had not given the state enough information.

She stopped by that time. I think she stopped. That's when somebody said in court that she went to see me. I don't know. Then she said she couldn't come back to see me no more.

After that — back then I really did not care who came or not. I came to a point that I really didn't know — I just wanted to get it over.

Okay. What about during the trial? I know that Ms. Reno sat in the first row while you testified. Do you recall her being in the courtroom?

I don't know. I think it was Mr. Von Zamft and the doctors, but one of them two.

Because I was supposed to — I was supposed to do the same thing, like when — like I had to pretend I was —

Okay. We're back on the record. It's approximately 20 minutes of two, and what happened was the tape machine was at the end of the tape. And I have a new tape in now.

Are you ready to proceed, Ileana?

Do you recall about how far in advance of your deposition it was?

No, they just told me if I recognize him. And because I was so afraid of him I would break down. You know, even today I —

No. A couple of times. When I was — because sometimes I refused to talk or I didn't want to talk about anything else, and I told them I have no dreams or nightmares, even though I was having them, because I was so tired.

And so when they would show me the picture I will get mad and, you know, I will get angry and I will get afraid, and then I will start talking about the nightmares or about him.

Just give me one moment here.

All right. Now do you want to say something?

But the only time I felt totally clean was when I was in Lowell when I was sent to the youth offender program, because over there I didn't get medications or anything.

All right. Now I just want to — I know it's going to be real difficult for you, but I just want to talk briefly again about — about Frank.

You indicated that you were afraid of him back then, and that you told the doctors about this. Is that correct?

Exactly. I have no memories of that because nothing really happened. I mean nothing. I just remember them being there and the parents coming and pick them up.

I don't know. You know, I have no experience with kids and, you know, that's — you know, that's the truth. You know, I have no experience if — if a kid was to wait for too long, that type of thing maybe happened, but I have no memories about anything happening at all in the house with the kids.

Let me ask you this: When talking about remembering, when you would have your sessions with Drs. Rappaport and Haber, what would happen if you told them that you didn't remember something?

He would stand and he would go like that with his hands, and say why, you know, why you don't remember, you know, do you want to spend the rest of your life here, you know. And do you want this to happen again to other kids, and what type of person you are.

But I didn't remember. You know, I — and then they said that to help me remember they will tell me what the kids were saying and would read me notes from what the kids were telling the Bragas.

Just that I — before going to bed, like I said before, I was supposed to close my eyes and I was supposed to think of the house. And I was supposed to be standing in front of the house, and I was supposed to walk towards the house, towards the front door. And that I was afraid to open it, and I was supposed to open the door, and I was supposed to see what was happening.

And before I knew it I would fall asleep and that's what would happen. And I — plus I was, sleeping all the time, so —

I think I've just about covered everything that I wanted to cover here with you today, Ileana.

Anything else that you can think of that, you know, we've spoken about here today that you've told me that you might want to add to, or anything else that you can think of that I may not have inquired about that you would like to make part of your statement here today?

No, just that — that I'm still trying to clear up what happened, you know, after knowing that there could be a possibility that these things never happened. You know, I just — I want to know the truth. But the truth of it is that none of these things happened because there's no way that I cannot remember. How come I remember what I was six years old and how come I remember my school? I even remember the bad times I had with Frank. And I don't remember anything with the kids. And I always had the — you know, after getting out of the prison, you know, I told myself that maybe the kids would grow up and they will remember, too, that nothing happened to them. And that maybe if that happened then I'll know what really happened to me.

And the only things I remember is what I briefly told you, you know, is the times in jail. That's what's been traumatic to me. The times in jail were awful. I mean I had — I have no peace at all. I remembered that — the lights, the coldness, the people banging on the doors, you know.

And then the doctors, they were there day and night. They were there on the weekend. And I didn't rest until I said whatever I had to say, you know, whatever would help the kids in court, because otherwise he was going to get out and he was going to get me.