IPT Journal - "In The Interest of Jane Doe and Tamera Doe  Proceedings Before the Hon. Richard X. Jackson"

In The Interest of Jane Doe and Tamera Doe¹
Proceedings Before the Hon. Richard X. Jackson

Appearances:
Nancy J. Stevens, for the People;
Jonathan R. Miller, for the Mother;
Zachary M. Bravos, for the Father;
Steven R. Wiener, Public defender, for the minors.

The Court:
	Good afternoon, Janie. I'm Judge Jackson. This is our court reporter and he's taking down all of the questions, statements, answers, anything that are done today. All that you are really looking at is a shorthand typewriter, that's what that is. If you have ever seen one before, I don't know. This is Mr. Bravos. He represents your father. Mr. Wiener, I think you have met. He represents you.
Janie:	Okay.
The Court:
	This is Nancy Stevens. She's an assistant state's attorney.
Janie:	Yes.
The Court:
	And this is Mr. Miller. He represents your mother. Let me ask you a few questions, Janie.
Janie Doe, called as a witness herein, was examined and testified as follows:
By the Court:
Q	How old are you at this time?
A	10.
Q	10? Okay. And what grade of school are you in?
A	Fifth.
Q	Fifth grade? Janie, in essence, do you know why you are here today? Kind of?
A	Yeah.
Q	The end result which the Court wishes to achieve is a reuniting of you and Tamera with your father and your mother. Now, it may be that your father and your mother may never live again together. I don't know. And the question is: how to best achieve that result. Okay?
A	Okay.
Q	Janie, let me ask you this. Can I assume a young lady of your age, being in fifth grade, you know the difference between right and wrong? Is this a fair statement?
A	Yes.
Q	You know what it is to tell the truth?
A	Yes.
Q	Have you ever been in a situation whereby you have had to testify under oath?
A	No.
Q	Okay. Because I'm going to ask you to raise your right hand right now. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
A	Yes, I do.
Q	All right.
The Court:
	Ms. Stevens — You can put your hand down. Ms. Stevens, I think you want to start the questions.
Ms. Stevens:
	Yes. Thank you, judge.

Examination By Ms. Stevens:
Q	Janie, do you want to state your age again for the record?
A	10.
Q	And your full name?
A	Janie Elizabeth Doe.
The Court:
	Janie, could you talk a little louder? Thank you.
Q	Where do you live right now, Janie?
A	In Forest City.
Q	Who do you live with?
A	Sharon Tuttle.
Q	Is that your foster mom?
A	Yes.
Q	Okay. How long have you been living there?
A	A little over two months.
Q	Do you like it there
A	It's okay, but I'd rather be at home.
Q	What do you like about the foster home?
A	There's kids there and Sharon is there to comfort me.
Q	Do you like Sharon?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you go to school —
A	Yes.
Q	— over there? What school do you go to?
A	I go to Kennedy.
Q	You are in fifth grade?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you like school?
A	Yes.
Q	What are some of the classes you take?
A	Language, reading, spelling.
Q	Are you in accelerated classes?
A	Yes.
Q	Is there anything you don't like about the foster home?
A	Some of the kids and —
Q	You can go ahead and explain if there is something you want to explain about what you don't like.
A	Basically — It's different than like being at my regular home and I have to like adapt to different surroundings and stuff. It's pretty hard.
Q	Okay. Where did you live before you lived at the foster home?
A	In Lakewood.
Q	Who did you live with there?
A	My mom and my brother and my sister.
Q	Okay. How many people are in your family? I mean in your immediate family. Your mom and your sister and your dad?
A	Yeah.
Q	And you?
A	Yes.
Q	When you lived in Lakewood, did you have any pets?
A	Yes. I had one dog and two cats.
Q	Do you guys have pets at the foster home?
A	Yes.
Q	What kind of pets does she have?
A	Three Newfoundlands, two toy poodles, five birds, three bunny rabbits. That's all.
Q	Do you guys help take care of them?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you have a certain job that you do?
A	I help feed the birds and clean the cages.
Q	Okay. Have you been seeing a therapist, Janie, doctor?
A	Yes.
Q	Who do you see?
A	Dr. Freeman.
Q	Dr. Freeman?
A	Yes.
Q	How long have you seen him? About.
A	At the foster home?
Q	I mean like have you seen him for a long time or just recently?
A	For a long time.
Q	For a long time? When do you see him?
A	I see him now, every Monday.
Q	So once a week —
A	Yes.
Q	— you see him? Do you like seeing Dr. Freeman?
A	Yes.
Q	What do you do when you see Dr. Freeman?
A	Just talk about my feelings and —
Q	Do you like to see Dr. Freeman?
A	He helps me with my feelings and he helps me to know what to do if a certain feeling comes up, if I have something bad happen to cope with it.
Q	Does he listen to your problems then?
A	Yes.
Q	And what else do you do besides talking? Do you do anything else when you see Dr. Freeman?
A	We play games.
Q	What kind of games?
A	Basketball, miniature hoop. And he teaches me how to juggle.
Q	How to juggle?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you want to continue to see Dr. Freeman?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you feel like Dr. Freeman helps you?
A	Yes. Very much.
Q	Are you able to tell Dr. Freeman things that you can't tell other people?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you ever visit with your mom as well?
A	Yes, I do.
Q	When do you visit your mom?
A	Mostly every Tuesday.
Q	For about how long?
A	An hour.
Q	Do you like to visit with your mother?
A	Yes.
Q	Why do you like that?
A	Because I miss her and she's my mom.
Q	Do you ever visit with your dad?
A	No.
Q	Why don't you?
A	I just don't feel like —
The Court:
	I'm sorry, I can't hear you,
Janie:	I don't want to because of what he has done and I don't think he deserves to see me.
Mr. Bravos:
	I'm sorry. I didn't hear what you said.
Janie:	I don't think he deserves to see me.
Q	And why don't — What specifically are you talking about what he did to you?
A	He abused me and —
Q	That's fine. Would you like to see your mom more than you see her?
A	Yes.
Q	How come?
A	(No response)
Q	That's okay. You have kind of said it already. Would you like to visit your dad if your dad would get some help?
A	No.
Q	Do you ever want to visit with your dad?
A	No.
Q	Do you know if your mom has a therapist that she visits with?
A	Yes. She has John Baumeister.
Q	Okay. Do you know does your dad see a therapist?
A	I don't know.
Q	Would you like to see your mom continue going to therapy?
A	Yes.
Q	How come?
A	Because she has problems that need to — and she needs to know how to handle them and stuff.
Q	So kind of for the same reasons you like to.
A	Yes.
Q	Okay. Would you like to see your dad see a therapist?
A	Yes.
Q	What good things can you tell us about your dad?
A	He's helpful sometimes.
Q	Are there any bad things about your dad that you want to tell us that you don't like?
A	Like recently — not recently, but before I stopped seeing him and stuff he didn't care to have us because he wouldn't go to work or pay for anything and he wouldn't do anything for us.
Q	Okay. What good things do you like about your mom?
A	She's nice and in hard times when I can't see Dr. Freeman she's there.
Q	Are there any things that you don't like about your mom or you'd like to see your mom work on?
A	Not really.
Q	Is there anyone else who you have good or bad feelings about?
A	Yes.
Q	Who else?
A	My grandma.
Q	What kind of feelings do you have for your grandma?
A	I don't like her either.
Q	Which grandma is this, is this your dad's mom or your mom's mom?
A	My mom's mom.
Q	Why don't you like your grandmother?
A	Because she does the same things that my dad had done.
Q	Do you feel — All right. Do you feel safe right now at the foster home?
A	Sort of, yes.
Q	Why do you feel safe? Are there any people you feel safe with?
A	Dr. Freeman and if we were to move and my dad wouldn't know where I was with my mom.
Q	Are there people you don't feel safe with?
A	Yes.
Q	Like who?
A	My dad and my grandma.
Q	If the judge were to ask you today where you would like to go to live, what would you tell him?
A	With my mom and my brother and sister.
Q	Do you see your brother?
A	Sometimes.
Q	Do you talk to him at all?
A	Yes. Sometimes I get a call from the foster home to my house and talk to him, see how he's doing.
Q	Does he still live with your mom?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you miss seeing your brother?
A	Yes.
Q	Did you and — it is Scott, right?
A	Yes.
Q	Did you and Scott get along well?
A	Yes.
Q	Why?
A	I don't know.
Q	Like what are some of the things you do with Scott?
A	We play games with each other and sometimes he like takes me out with his friends. It's pretty good for an older brother to do.
Q	How old is Scott?
A	He's 16.
Q	How do you and Tamera get along?
A	Pretty good.
Q	Pretty good. Do you have the same room at the foster home?
A	Yes.
Q	You and Tamera ever talk about your feelings?
A	Sometimes Tamera talks to me but I don't feel safe talking to her.
Q	Why not?
A	Because I'm afraid she'd — when she sees my dad she'd tell and then I'd feel like he'd get mad at me more than he is already.
Q	How do you feel about Tamera seeing your dad?
A	I don't want her to see him, but that's not for me to decide.
Q	Is there anything that you want to tell the judge today or ask — anything that you want to make clear to him about your feelings or say to him?
A	Only that I very much want to go home again.
Q	Anything else?
A	(No response)
Ms. Stevens:
	I have no further questions.
The Court:
	Mr. Miller, would you like to ask Janie any questions?
Mr. Miller:
	Just a couple.

Examination By Mr. Miller:
Q	Now Janie, you said that you — you told the judge that you wanted to go live with your mom. Did you say why you wanted to do that?
A	No.
Q	Do you have any reasons other than just you miss her and she's your mom? Do you think that your mom could take care of you?
A	Yes, I do.
Q	Have you talked to your brother over the telephone? Is that what I heard you say? Or Scott over the telephone.
A	Yes.
Q	When is the last time you talked to him?
A	I don't know.
Q	Was it a couple weeks ago or a month ago?
A	Couple weeks ago.
Q	Do you talk to Dr. Freeman about your dad?
A	Yes.
Q	Does Dr. Freeman help you in how you feel about your dad do you think?
A	Yes.
Q	You would want to keep seeing Dr. Freeman?
A	Yes.
Mr. Miller:
	I guess that's all at this time, judge.
The Court:
	Mr. Wiener, do you have any questions of Janie?
Mr. Wiener:
	Just a couple, judge.

Examination By Mr. Wiener:
Q	Janie, you said you were kind of scared of your dad. Is that what you said?
A	Yes.
Q	And that's because of what he had done to you?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you think there will ever be a time — strike that. Let me rephrase that question.
Q	What would make you less scared of your dad?
A	I don't know.
Q	I think Ms. Stevens had mentioned that if he had gone through therapy, would that change your mind about him?
A	No.
Q	You don't think so? Do you think there's any thing that would change your mind about how you feel about him?
A	No.
Q	You also stated you didn't care for your grandma that much, you were scared of her also.
A	Yes.
Q	Is there anything that would make you change your mind about her?
A	No.
Q	How do you feel about Tamera visiting your dad?
A	I don't like it.
Q	Why don't you like it?
A	I just feel that he may like — I don't know how to say it — tell her things about me. And then in the past he's written me letters and stuff and seeing him he could give those things to me and those things —
Q	So you're scared about the way your dad will act toward you if Tamera sees him.
A	Yes.
Q	When you see Dr. Freeman, you said you talk about your feelings —
A	Yes.
Q	— and about your dad? And you do this by talking, isn't that right?
A	Yes.
Q	And also through games and things like that?
A	Yes.
Q	After you go to Dr. Freeman, does it make you feel better to go see him?
A	Yes.
Q	Is there anybody else that you kind of talk to the same way as you talk to Dr. Freeman? I think you mentioned your mom. Is there anybody else you talk to like that?
A	One time I went in to John Baumeister because I think Dr. Freeman was somewhere else and I couldn't handle some of my feelings, so my mom took me over there and I talked to him.
Q	Do you ever talk to your foster mom about stuff?
A	Yes.
Q	Does she help you, make you feel a little bit better?
A	Yes.
Mr. Wiener:
	I have nothing further, judge.
The Court:
	Mr. Bravos, do you have some questions?
Mr. Bravos:
	I have some of Janie.

Examination By Mr. Bravos:
Q	Janie, what would you like to see happen to your father?
A	I'd like to see him not being able to see me or Tamera and this should be like away from my family.
Q	Would you like to see him maybe in jail?
A	Yes.
Q	Would you like to see him dead, if he were to die?
A	No.
Q	Do you think he should go to jail for a long time?
A	Just 'til he recognizes what he had done.
Q	You don't think he recognizes what he did?
A	No.
Q	What do you mean by that?
A	I mean like one of the letters in the past he's written to me, he was wondering why I didn't want to see him and —
Q	So you think he doesn't — do you think he doesn't remember what he did or that he just won't admit what he did?
A	I just think he won't admit, sort of not remember.
Q	And when someone asked you about your grandma, that makes you — your grandma, your mother's mother — that makes you scared too.
A	Yes.
Q	Even more than your dad or about the same?
A	Pretty much about the same.
Q	They both did — they both abused you?
A	Yes.
Q	And had they both did the same things to you?
A	Basically, yes.
Q	Do you know if your grandmother, the one that you're afraid of, if she ever abused your mother too?
A	I don't know.
Q	How does your mother — what does your mother think of her own mother? Do you know what I'm asking?
A	Yes. Because of the things she had done to me, my mom doesn't like her.
Q	You have another grandmother too, don't you?
A	Yes.
Q	What do you call her?
A	What do you mean?
Q	What's your name for her? Like if I talk about her, you'll know who I'm talking about.
A	Grandma.
Q	Grandma? Okay.
A	Yes.
Q	That's your dad's mother?
A	Yes.
Q	How do you feel about her?
A	She's all right.
Q	Are you afraid of her at all?
A	Sort of.
Q	Why are you afraid of her?
A	I don't know.
Q	But you are afraid of her?
A	Yes.
Q	How about your grandfather, your father's father, how do you feel about him?
A	He's all right.
Q	Janie, do you remember when you were in the hospital?
A	Yes.
Q	Okay. When were you there?
A	Last year, in the beginning of last year.
Q	These things that your father and that your grandmother did to you, did you always remember them?
A	Uh-uh (no).
Q	When did you first remember them?
A	Around Christmas time in 1990.
Q	What happened then that had you remember these things?
A	I don't — I was seeing them more often than usual. That's basically it.
Q	Did you get help in remembering these things in the hospital?
A	Yes.
Q	Who helped you to remember these things?
A	One of the nurses there, Susan. I don't remember what her last name was. And then Judy Martinez.
Q	How was it that they would help you to remember?
A	I don't know.
Q	Let's say with Susan, what kind of things would you do with Susan?
A	Well, she just talked to me and started asking me questions and that's — we'd get into it.
Q	Get into what?
A	Get into talking about it.
Q	Do you remember using with Susan this sand, playing with the sand tray?
A	Yes.
Q	What kind of things would you do with the sand tray?
A	Just make it in certain places and put figures in there to represent something.
Q	What kind of figures, what were they going to represent?
A	I don't know. Red leaves with rivers and a fire, like that.
Q	Did you have like little toys or something or like things you could actually put in there?
A	Yes.
Q	What kind of stuff would you have?
A	Like little dolls, miniature things that go in a doll house and then tables and then some other things like that.
Q	Did this help you to remember too?
A	Yes.
Q	How does this help — how did that help you remember?
A	I don't know.
Q	Well, before you remembered these things, were you afraid of your father?
A	Not really.
Q	Janie, do you have parts inside you?
A	Yes.
Q	What are parts? What would you call them, if I said I don't understand what that means? What are you talking about when you have parts inside you?
A	Like different feeling type things. They just — there's — Hold it. I don't know how to say it.
Q	I don't know either. That's why I was asking. Why don't you describe it for me the best way you can?
A	They're like little people and —
Q	Do they have faces? Can you think that they each have like different faces?
A	Yes, I can think that.
Q	Do they talk to you?
A	Yes.
Q	Is that something like you can hear just inside your own head?
A	Yes.
Q	What kind of things do they tell you?
A	I don't know. Like — I don't know.
Q	Do they tell you good things?
A	Sometimes. Other times things I don't want to hear; I'm afraid of something.
Q	Do they ever tell you about abuse?
A	Yes.
Q	Is there like — well, how many parts are there?
A	I don't know.
Q	Is there more than one or two or —
A	Yes, there's more than one or two.
Q	Well, I don't know what's in there, so that's why I'm asking you. Are there like ten, twenty?
A	Maybe between ten and fifteen, something like that.
Q	Do you sometimes find new parts?
A	Yes.
Q	When is the last time you found a part?
A	Probably last year when — maybe the fall, around then.
Q	Does that part have a name?
A	Not yet.
Q	What does that part do?
A	Holds in something, feelings about some people. Like that part helps in feelings about my dad.
Q	You say you have a part that has the feelings about your dad?
A	Yes.
Q	What are the feelings that that part has?
A	Angry, mad.
Q	Does that part talk to you?
A	Yes.
Q	What does that part tell you?
A	I don't know. It just tells me — not really how to feel, but how it feels and then I usually tell somebody else and —
Q	Well, you're going to have to help me a little bit with that.
A	I know.
Q	We'll talk about the part that has — holds your feelings about your dad.
A	Okay.
Q	You actually hear that part talk to you?
A	Yes, sometimes.
Q	Is it a boy or a girl?
A	I don't know.
Q	Does that — do you hear it like only at night or in the day or anytime or —
A	Anytime.
Q	And can you understand what it says?
A	Sometimes.
Q	Sometimes you can't?
A	Uh-huh (yes).
Q	But when you can't understand it, what does it sound like to you?
A	Mumbles and — really confusing and I don't know what to think about it.
Q	So like — I'm just trying to imagine myself. Would it be like — maybe like — do you ever play a record where you can't — it's on the wrong speed?
A	Yes.
Q	Is it that kind of thing?
A	Yes. Sort of.
Q	And when you can understand it, what does it tell you?
A	Like I said before, it's feelings about dad.
Q	Does it say — that's what I'm trying to get some help with. Does it say "I feel angry about your father" or something like that?
A	Yes. Or else it says that — saying these are my feelings right now about him and then —
Q	I'm just asking you because I can't see what's in there. Did you always have these parts?
A	I don't know.
Q	Did you get these parts — did you find out about these parts in the hospital?
A	Yes.
Q	Was there somebody there to help you find out about these parts?
A	Yes.
Q	Who was that?
A	Susan.
Q	We walked a little bit about Susan.
A	Yes.
Q	We didn't get into much about Judy Martinez. Who was she?
A	She was one of the therapists there.
Q	And what does she do?
A	She helped me about my feelings also. She — the only reason Judy Martinez was there, because Susan, she wasn't certified or something like that. Then Judy Martinez was her boss.
Q	Okay.
A	Sometimes when Susan wasn't there I'd have to talk to her.
Q	Do you know how your mom feels about Judy Martinez?
A	No.
Q	Do you like Judy Martinez?
A	Uh-uh (no).
Q	Why not?
A	She told me lies.
Q	Judy Martinez told you lies?
A	Yes.
Q	When did she tell you these lies?
A	At the hospital. She like — to be afraid of your mom. But I knew that I shouldn't be because she never did anything.
Q	Did she say why you should be afraid of your mother?
A	Not really.
Q	Was that something that she said just like one time or did she say that a lot to you?
A	She'd say that a lot.
Q	Did she ever tell you to be afraid of your dad?
A	Sometimes. But I already knew that, so —
Q	When was the first time that you remember being afraid of your dad?
A	It started a little bit in the hospital, but I only said it once in awhile because — I was still questioning it and I didn't understand.
Q	You didn't believe it at first?
A	Yes.
Q	But since being in the hospital — since being out of the hospital, you have come to understand it better?
A	Yes.
Q	And you have come to believe it?
A	Yes.
Q	Who helped you to understand it?
A	I still, even though I wasn't in the hospital, but I'd still see Susan at a certain place.
Q	She'd help you to understand and to believe these things, the memories about your father?
A	Yes.
Q	Anybody other than Susan?
A	After Susan there was Dr. Freeman.
Q	Now, you still see Dr. Freeman?
A	Yes.
Q	Does Dr. Freeman help you to understand? Does he work with these parts that you have too?
A	Yes.
Q	What kind of things have you done with that?
A	He just does basically the same thing that — helps understand and then to find out ways to either not be afraid or to help it.
Q	When did you — Janie, when did you first start to really believe these memories about your dad and your grandma? Was it with Susan or was it with Dr. Freeman?
A	Really with Dr. Freeman.
Q	And what was it that you did with Dr. Freeman that you came to believe these?
A	Talked more and more about it. And then the more I talked the more I would believe. When the parts talked more I believed.
Q	The more the parts talked to you the more you believed.
A	Yes.
Q	How many parts are there that tell you about bad things that your father did?
A	I don't know.
Q	Is there maybe — Is there one more than another?
A	Yes. The one about the latest one.
Q	How about before that one? Because that would be — you told me that was the one — maybe I didn't hear right — I thought that was the one that helped the feelings that you have about your father.
A	Yes. Also like some of the —
Q	Are there other parts that have the memories too?
A	Yes.
Q	How many of the parts have — how many of the parts inside you have the memories about your father?
A	Probably between like one and seven or something.
Q	Do any of them have names?
A	Some of them do.
Q	Can you tell us the names of any of them?
A	There's Cuddles, there was Afraid and then Red. And Alone did I already mention?
Q	I don't think so.
A	I didn't know if I did or not.
Q	We talked about some of the names —
A	Yes.
Q	— that the parts have. Are there other parts that have the memories about your grandma or are they the same ones that as your dad?
A	There are some of the same and some of the others.
Q	How do you know which part it is that's talking to you?
A	Like by the way they talk and the voices and then sometimes if there is two and they just started talking, then —
Q	Do they have different voices?
A	Yes.
Q	Are some boys and some girls?
A	Yes.
Q	Are some older and some younger than you?
A	Yes.
Q	How old is your oldest part?
A	I don't know.
Q	Well, you are what, ten or so you said?
A	Yes. I think it was around ten years old, something like that.
The Court:
	I'm sorry I didn't hear you, Janie.
Janie:	Maybe like ten or so like me.
Q	And you have some that are younger than you too?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you have any that are two or three years old?
A	Yes.
Q	You said sometimes these parts when they talk do they — do you hear them inside your head?
A	Yes.
Q	And do they ever talk out of your mouth too?
A	Sometimes.
Q	How does that happen? Does it — does sometime one of these parts take you over or something like that?
A	Yeah.
Q	How does that — tell me about how that works.
A	I don't know. Like — Susan, I don't know how she did it. But sometimes they just come out.
Q	You did that with Susan?
A	Yes.
Q	She was able to get these parts out?
A	Yes.
Q	Now, when these parts were out, instead of talking inside your head, they were actually talking through your mouth?
A	Yes.
Q	When one of these parts was, you know, talking through your mouth like that, —
A	Yes.
Q	— could you talk too at the same time?
A	No.
Q	What happened to you? Where did you go?
A	Well, Susan made up a place, my safe place, and then wherever I felt the safest, that's where I would like go, somewhere in my head.
Q	What was a safe place like?
A	Ocean beach.
Q	So then when she would bring one of these parts out, how did she — was there anything that she did or anything that she said to do that?
A	No.
Q	No? Can your mom bring these kind of parts out too?
A	No.
Q	How about Dr. Freeman, can he do that?
A	Yes.
Q	How does he do it?
A	I don't know. He just like asks if I would let them come out.
Q	Then is there something you do inside your-self to let them come out?
A	(No response)
Q	When is the last time Dr. Freeman had one of your parts come out?
A	Sometime before I went to the foster home.
Q	Which part did he bring out?
A	I can't remember.
Q	When one of these parts comes out and you go to this safe place that you were telling us about,
A	Yes.
Q	— can you hear what's going on? Can you hear what your part is saying?
A	Sometimes, before I go to my safe place, Susan would say go to a certain room, like I couldn't hear, then sometimes I could.
Q	So sometimes when Susan sent you to the safe place, she'd send you to a place where you couldn't hear what your part was saying?
A	Yes. Sometimes she would. Depends on what they were going to talk about.
Q	How about Dr. Freeman, when he brings out your parts, can you hear what your parts are saying?
A	Same as Susan, depends on what they're going to say?
Q	Do you know what they're going to say?
A	Sometimes with Dr. Freeman he'd say, "Could you handle here what we're going to talk about?" Then he'd say whatever, then —
Q	Let me ask you that. When you say he'll ask you, "Can you handle hearing about," then he'll actually tell you something?
A	Yes.
Q	Like what kinds of things?
A	Like the way he'd say it, he'd say, "Can you handle hearing about some of the things that maybe your dad did at a certain time period or else your grandma did."
Q	And at the time he asks you that, do you have any memory about it? Or does your part have to give a memory?
A	Depends on if the part had been talking to me, then I would know.
Q	But if the part hadn't been talking to you, then —
A	No.
Q	— you wouldn't know what the part was going to say.
A	No, not really.
Q	So if he asks you if you can handle — let's say you say, "Can you handle talking about some thing that happened to your dad during this time period?" Sometimes you say, "Yeah, I can handle that"?
A	Yes. Or else if I wasn't really sure, he'd say, "Then I don't think you can," just to be on the safe side.
Q	Then if you can't handle it, what happens?
A	Then I go to a place where I can't hear and then the parts would come up.
Q	And when you are in that safe place and your part is talking, you can't hear what that part is saying, is that what you are telling me?
A	Yes.
Q	When you are in that safe place, do you know what your body is doing?
A	Not really.
Q	Is it like falling asleep or something?
A	Yes.
Q	When you wake up, is it — how do you come back from that place? How does that happen?
A	I don't know. Sometimes he'd send another part to get me or else he'd send that part back, then I'd know.
Q	Is it like waking up from being asleep?
A	Yes.
Q	Did Dr. Freeman ever tell you anything about hypnosis?
A	No.
Q	Now, let's say when you are talking, when you had one of these parts come out and you couldn't handle hearing it and the doctor sent you to a safe place where you couldn't hear what that part was saying, when you came back, what would happen then? Would Dr. Freeman tell you what the part said or would he — how would that work?
A	Sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn't.
Q	Well —
A	Maybe the part would say, "I don't want Jan ie to hear this. —
Q	Uh-huh.
A	— I don't think she could handle it," or something like that.
Q	But then if the part said it's okay to tell Janie, then the doctor would tell you.
A	Yes.
Q	Does he sometimes tell you things that you didn't even know about until after he told you that your part said it?
A	Once in awhile.
Q	What kinds of things would he tell you that you didn't even know about?
A	I don't know.
Q	Which were your dad and your grandma?
A	Yes.
Q	Bad things?
A	Yes.
Q	Did he tell you that you should believe those things?
A	He said it was my choice if I would or not. I would think it over and then say, "Could this like really have happened?" Then I would question myself and then I'd tell Dr. Freeman that I can't understand right now, but later on —
Q	Later on you could understand it?
A	Yes.
Q	Then you can believe it fully with all of your heart later on?
A	Yes.
Q	But sometimes you are told these things and at first you don't believe them because it doesn't make sense to you?
A	Yes.
Q	How do you come to believe it? How do you make sure that it is true?
A	Sometimes I ask one of the parts to tell me that is it really true, give me more details, I want to hear it.
Q	Did you ever hear anything from one of these parts that you didn't believe and that later on you decided wasn't true, that it didn't happen?
A	I don't know.
Q	You can't think of any?
A	No.
Q	Pretty much the things they tell you you come to believe are true?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you remember playing the finger game?
A	Yes. With the gentleman and not with the fingers.
Q	Yes. Who taught you that?
A	Susan.
Q	Was that a way that you could find out about your parts?
A	Sometimes.
Q	How did the finger game work?
A	I don't know. I raise one finger for yes, I would do it when my parts would, another finger for no, then if they weren't sure, then there was another finger for that.
Q	Would you raise like three fingers? But it wasn't really you raising your finger, it was the part.
A	Yes.
Q	Did you ever play the finger game with your mom too?
A	Sometimes. Because when I couldn't handle it I'd talk to my mom a little and it is hard for her to believe, so she'd ask also just to make sure.
Q	She'd ask her own parts or she'd ask your parts?
A	She'd ask mine. I have never seen hers.
Q	She'd ask your parts with the finger game.
A	Yes.
Q	Then she would tell you whether or not you could believe it. Was it like a double check or something like that?
A	Yes.
Q	When she did that with you, did it usually check out to be true that you should believe it?
A	Yes.
Q	Now, your mom got memories too, she has parts too, doesn't she?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you ever talk to your mom's parts?
A	Sometimes I check with them to see if they —
Q	How would you check with one of your mom's parts?
A	I just ask her to ask them and then they would say.
Q	Can you give me an example? Can you remember anything about something where you had to ask your mom for her parts too?
A	When I first started believing about my dad, —
Q	Uh-huh.
A	— I asked her to ask her parts if they believe about what I was saying is true or not.
Q	Did she check with her parts?
A	Yes.
Q	What did she tell you?
A	I can't remember exactly what she said, but maybe it would have been like they weren't sure yet and they'd like to hear a little more just to make sure or else it would be a yes or no.
Q	When they say they'd want to hear a little more, would you then go talk to your parts and get some more details, then talk to your mom again?
A	It depended if my parts felt like it because other times they could say, like when my mom used to drop me off to go to Dr. Freeman's she would go in there and then talk and she'd hear a little more from Dr. Freeman and then later on when I go in to see Dr. Freeman he'd tell me what he said just to make sure that he wasn't laying —
Q	There you lost me a little bit, Janie. I'm sorry. I couldn't understand what you were telling me about. Sometimes your mom would go see Dr. Freeman first?
A	Yes. Because she wasn't sure of something.
Q	Yes.
A	And then she'd come out, then I'd go in and then he would tell me what they were saying or —
Q	So then when you'd go in, Dr. Freeman would tell you what your mom told him.
A	It depended what it was.
Q	Uh-huh (yes). Sometimes it was too bad to hear?
A	Or sometimes it was just between him and mom.
Q	Does your mom talk to Dr. Freeman a lot?
A	Not a lot, no.
Q	I know now she — in the foster home. When you weren't in the foster home, would she take you to Dr. Freeman's office?
A	When I —
Q	When you weren't in the foster home, when you lived with your mom.
A	Yes.
Q	Was she the one who would take you?
A	Yes. Sometimes. Then other times either Marie or Carol.
Q	Well, can you remember any of the things that Dr. Freeman told you that your mom told him?
A	No.
Q	Was it stuff about your dad and grandma?
A	Yes. When I first started, was about my dad, she wasn't sure. At a certain point. And then she just asked him because she couldn't —
Q	Your mom would ask Dr. Freeman —
A	Yes.
Q	— about the things that your dad did to you?
A	Yes.
Q	And Dr. Freeman, what did he say?
A	Sometimes he'd say, "We haven't talked about that much yet" or something.
Q	Dr. Freeman believes that your dad hurt you?
A	As far as I know, yes.
Q	Has he ever told you that?
A	Yes. When I was doubting myself a couple times.
Q	When was that?
A	Sometime later.
Q	You had been doubting sometimes if what you think you remember was really true?
A	Yes.
Q	But Dr. Freeman — what would he say?
A	He'd just say, "Would you really have done all this for nothing?" and stuff.
Q	Did Dr. Freeman ever say that it is possible sometimes for people to remember things that didn't happen?
A	No.
Q	He never said that to you?
A	No.
Q	Janie, what's a trigger? Can you tell me what a trigger is? I know it is hard to explain. I tried to understand it too, so maybe you can help me a little bit.
A	Like something — I'll give you an example.
Q	Okay.
A	Maybe my dad, he'd do something and then he'd have something represent it or he'd have like a teddy bear or something like that, and then he'd make me act a certain way, then when he'd give me like that teddy bear, I'd act in that way again.
Q	Let's say — you just brought up a teddy bear. Did he give you a teddy bear?
A	Yes. While I was in the room he gave me one.
Q	Was that supposed to do something?
A	Yes.
Q	What was it supposed to do?
A	Make me scared, make me not talk anymore.
Q	How do you know that?
A	He planted it.
Q	He planted it?
A	Yes.
Q	Where? In your head?
A	Yes.
Q	How did he do that?
A	I think-before we stopped seeing him, he'd say — teddy bear of this color would say — tell you not to talk or not to do this, then he'd just keep on saying it so it would get in my head. Then when I'd see a teddy bear that color or something, I'd remember.
Q	Now, do you remember him telling you that with the teddy bear or is that something one of your parts told you?
A	One of my parts.
Q	Which part told you that?
A	That one was the one about the — the latest one.
Q	The latest one, it doesn't have a name yet.
A	Yes.
Q	So before that part told you you didn't remember your father planted that trigger, is that right?
A	Yes.
Q	Is that the way that triggers work, that you don't know about them?
A	Some ones I do, then sometimes I don't.
Q	Now, who else triggers you?
A	My grandma with some things.
Q	Janie, who taught you about triggers?
A	My parts that already know — with me, Judy Martinez did.
Q	And what did — she's the one who told you about how triggers work?
A	She would just tell me about them, and then my parts would say most of it. I don't know how.
Q	I don't know either because I can't see inside there.
A	I know.
Q	It is hard for me to understand, so I'm just asking you to tell me. All right. Maybe I'm just confusing you a little bit. Janie, do you remember seeing a movie called "Here Comes the Muffin Man"?
A	Yes.
Q	What was that movie about?
A	It was about a kid in a preschool or something like that, a day care, and then they were doing that and then —
Q	They were doing what?
A	They were raising the kids in there and then some kids started remembering.
Q	Where did you see that movie?
A	I saw it at home. It was on TV.
Q	Was this after your dad was out of the house?
A	Yes.
Q	Was that — did Tamera see that movie too?
A	Yes.
Q	Did your mom tape that movie?
A	No. One of her friends did.
Q	And then would you see the tape too?
A	Yes.
Q	How many times did you see the movie?
A	Once or twice.
Q	And how about Tamera, how many times did she see it?
A	I'm not sure. I think twice.
Q	But this was a movie about kids who had been abused but didn't remember?
A	Yes.
Q	Then they got memories?
A	Yes.
Q	Did they get memories kind of like you got memories or was it different?
A	I don't think they had parts. I had parts. I can't remember the movie clearly, but I don't think they remembered basically like how I did.
Q	Does Tamera have parts too?
A	I don't know. She says she does.
Q	But you don't think they are real parts like you have.
A	I do, but — I do.
Q	That's okay if you don't. Just tell me how you really feel about that.
A	I do, but then before she ever did I was — started talking about them. So I don't know.
Q	Do you think they might have got the idea from you? Is that what you mean by that?
A	Yes, sort of.
Mr. Bravos:
	That's all I have.

Examination By the Court:
Q	Janie, if I understood what you said, you first started remembering about the things that your father did in 1990. Is that what you said?
A	Something like that.
Q	December, 1990. Now, were you about seven years old then when you started to remember? Is that about right?
A	Yes.
Q	If I understood what you said to Mr. Bravos, you had some parts for two and three years, is that right?
A	Yes.
Q	So you started to remember somewhere between two and three years ago, right?
A	(nodding positively)
Q	Now, when you were remembering, in your remembrances, do you know how old you were when these things happened?
A	No.
Q	There was a point in time, I believe, when your grandmother Mildred lived at home with you?
A	Yes.
Q	And your father, your mother and your sister and Scott.
A	Uh-huh.
Q	Now, did these things that you remember occur while you were all living in the house?
A	Some.
Q	Some occurred while you were living in the house. Did some occur before your grand mother Mildred came to live with you?
A	(nodding negatively)
Q	No? You don't know.
A	She lived with me since I was born.
Q	Okay. So — did anything happen after your Grandma Mildred left?
A	Yes.
Q	Okay.
A	When we visited her.
Q	When things happened after — did your father in any way hurt you after Grandma Mildred left?
A	Yes.
Q	And Grandma did too, —
A	Yes.
Q	— is that right? When Grandma Mildred was living with you, she hurt you, right?
A	Yes.
Q	And your father hurt you?
A	Uh-huh.
Q	Did they ever work together in hurting you?
A	Yes.
Q	All right. Do you know if at any time when you were hurt while Grandma Mildred was living in the house, do you know if there were any witnesses besides yourself and your father and Grandma Mildred?
A	Sometimes —
Q	Would your mother have seen it, would Tamera have seen it, would Scott have seen it? Do you have any idea?
A	Tamera and Scott.
Q	You think Tamera saw it?
A	Yes.
Q	Does Tamera ever say she saw it to you?
A	No.
Q	Okay. When the bad things happened after Grandma Mildred left the house, do you know if anybody saw that besides yourself, Grandma Mildred and your father?
A	Can you say that again?
Q	If anything bad happened to you where you were hurt, after your Grandmother Mildred left living with you and your father, your mother and your sister and brother —
A	Yes.
Q	You said things happened after she left.
A	Yes.
Q	Do you recall if anybody saw them do these things besides yourself and your father and grandmother, Mildred?
A	Yes.
Q	Who?
A	Again, my brother, my sister and then my aunt.
Q	You say "brother." Would that be Scott —
A	Yes.
Q	— saw it and Tamera saw it?
A	Uh-huh.
Q	All right. And you said an aunt?
A	Yes.
Q	What aunt is that?
A	Betty.
Q	Aunt Betty? Aunt Betty; your mother's sister?
A	Yes.
Q	When they saw something, did they all see the same thing?
A	I —
Q	Pardon.
A	I don't know.
Q	Well, you say they witnessed things, right?
A	Yes.
Q	They all witness at the same time?
A	Sometimes. Other times —
Q	Say Scott witnessed more than one time do you think?
A	Yes.
Q	Did Tamera witness more than one time do you think?
A	Uh-huh (yes).
Q	And did Aunt Betty witness more than one time do you think?
A	Yes.
The Court:
	I have no other questions. Does anybody else have any questions?
Mr. Bravos:
	Just to follow up.

Examination By Mr. Bravos:
Q	When you first started remembering things that happened to you, —
A	Yes.
Q	— was that around the time when you went into the hospital?
A	Yes. Before.
Q	You said the Christmas before.
A	Yes.
Q	Is that right?
A	Yes.
Q	I'm not trying to — you can explain to me. Maybe I can understand.
A	Okay. Well, what happened is that around Christmas time I started remembering. And then I couldn't handle it, so my mom said I needed to go somewhere where I could talk about it better.
Q	Let me just stop right there. When you started remembering, did you know about your parts at all at that time?
A	No.
Q	Okay. But you talked to your mom about it?
A	Yes. I said I heard voices telling me these things, that I'd get scared and I couldn't handle —
Q	Did you ever tell your dad about that?
A	Yes, sometimes I did.
Q	Now, when you — when you told your mom about this, what did she tell you? Tell me this —
A	I don't know.
Q	She said something about needing to go to a safe place or something.
A	Yes. I needed to go somewhere where I could talk about to people who are — who have been trained to —
Q	Experts?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you know if your mother had ever been to a place like that?
A	Yes.
Q	Did she ever tell you about that?
A	I remember about that.
Q	What do you remember about that? When your mom was there.
A	Can you like rephrase it? I don't —
Q	Well, what do you remember about your mom being in a place like that with experts to help you remember?
A	My dad just told me that she was there to talk about some feelings that she had.
Q	Do you know that if they were about her mother hurting her?
A	She said it was about her grandma doing something, something like that, her dad.
Mr. Bravos:
	That's all I have, judge.
The Court:
	Anybody else?
Mr. Miller:
	Yes.
The Court:
	Go ahead.

Examination By Mr. Miller:
Q	Did you ever have a conversation with your dad and he told you something about when your mother went to the hospital?
A	Yes.
Q	What did your dad tell you about that?
A	He just said like my mom needed help. Which she went in a place where she could get it.
Q	Okay. Now, when you started remembering about things about your — what your dad did to you, you first told that to your mom, is that right?
A	Yes.
Q	And was that when you and your mom got into the conversation that your mom wasn't quite sure whether to believe you or not? Let me put it this way. If I can rephrase it. Did your mom believe you right away when you told her about being abused by your dad?
A	No.
Q	No? What happened at first when you told your mom that your dad did some bad things to you? What did she do first?
A	At first she said she was confused.
Q	Were you seeing any experts at that time that you first started having these remembrances or were you just — weren't seeing anybody?
A	I wasn't seeing anybody.
Q	All right. So that when you told your mom that you started to remember these things about your dad, is that when she decided that you should go to see the experts?
A	I had already gone to the hospital.
Q	Okay.
A	Then I was back home. Then I started remembering about my dad.
Q	So you were at the hospital first, when you came back home you told your mom about what happened with you and your dad?
A	Yes.
Q	What did she do then?
A	She was confused. She was — and she didn't believe me either. They needed to find out more.
Q	Is that when you started seeing Dr. Freeman?
A	Yes.
Q	Did your mom ever tell you what to say or to say anything bad about your dad?
A	No.
Q	When you first found out about the parts — and I'm a little confused about that — are these parts of you?
A	Yes.
Q	So they're all part of Janie, is that right?
A	Yes.
Q	Did one of the doctors or did Susan at the hospital tell you about parts initially? How did you find out about them initially?
A	By Susan.
Q	So when you are telling us about parts, they're all part of you, they're not somebody else, is that right?
A	Right.
Q	Do you find that talking about parts and having parts helps you to remember things?
A	Yes.
The Court:
	Janie, are you getting tired?
Janie:	Yes.
The Court:
	Go ahead, Jon.
Mr. Miller:
	I've just got a couple, judge.
Q	Janie, have you made up any abuse stories about your dad that you know?
A	No.
Q	So when you say your dad hurt you, you feel that you are telling the truth now, is that right?
A	Yes.
Q	You don't think your parts told you something that was wrong.
A	Uh-uh.
Q	When you said your Aunt Betty and Scott were around when your dad abused you, did you see him there when some of these things happened?
A	Sometimes I would see them and then other times I would hear their voices, but —
Q	You wouldn't see them?
A	Sometimes I would. That's when I would be sure that it was them. But when I just heard their voices, I wasn't sure.
Q	Well, about how many times do you think that your dad may have hurt you or did something to you that you didn't want him to do that you felt was an abuse? Was it more than five times do you think?
A	Yes.
Q	Did you ever talk to Scott about any of these things?
A	No.
Q	Was your Aunt Betty there with your dad? Did she help your dad at all do anything like that?
A	Sometimes. I mean —
Q	Did you ever ask Scott or Aunt Betty to get you out of this mess that you were in with your dad?
A	Yes.
Q	But then I assume since Aunt Betty was in on it she didn't help you out, is that right?
A	Uh-huh (yes).
Q	Okay. So Aunt Betty never helped you with any of this abuse stuff.
A	No.
Q	Now were you ever — there's some question Mr. Bravos asked about hypnotism. Were you ever placed under hypnosis? Do you know what that is?
A	I know what it is, but I never —
Q	Okay. Now, when you go over to see Dr. Freeman, does he bring up this stuff about parts or do you bring it up? Who initially started it with you and Dr. Freeman about your parts?
A	Me.
Q	It was you? And you have discussed how you feel about your dad with Dr. Freeman and how you were abused by your dad with Dr. Freeman, is that correct?
A	Yes.
Q	And you are still working on these feelings. That is one of the reasons you want to keep seeing Dr. Freeman.
Mr. Miller:
	That's all, judge. She's getting kind of sleepy.
The Court:
	Just a few more questions, Janie,
Mr. Bravos:
	I have got just two, Janie. I'm sorry. One question.

Examination By Mr. Bravos:
Q	Some of these things when you were hurt, it was like a furnace there?
A	Yes.
Q	Do you remember any name on that furnace or anything?
A	I don't know for sure because the place I was in was dark.
Q	Do you ever remember figuring out a name on that furnace at one time?
A	Yes.
Q	Was it Gygoper (phonetic spelling), something like that?
A	Something in that order. I can't remember right off the top.
Q	My other question: Has anybody else ever hurt you, abused you, other than your father, your grandmother, your Aunt Betty? Scott never abused you, did he?
A	No.
Q	Anybody else other than those three people?
A	Yes. A man, he doesn't belong to my family I know of, but his name is Mike.
Q	That's the bearded man?
A	Yes.
Q	Anybody else?
A	A man — I have no idea.
Q	Another man?
A	I don't — I'm not even sure.
Q	That's all?
A	Yes.
Mr. Bravos:
	That's all I have.
The Court:
	Thank you, Janie, very much.

¹ With the exception of Zachary Bravos, all names have been changed. [Back]

In The Interest of Jane Doe and Tamera Doe1 Proceedings Before the Hon. Richard X. Jackson

In The Interest of Jane Doe and Tamera Doe¹
Proceedings Before the Hon. Richard X. Jackson